Here's the one that has my interest today:
Do you use the words gay and retarded a lot? For example, "That's gay," meaning "that's stupid." Or, "God, you're so retarded," etc.
Do you find it acceptable? Unacceptable?
Do you use it in private, around friends you trust? Not at all?
Do you find it acceptable? Unacceptable?
Do you use it in private, around friends you trust? Not at all?
Anyone who knows me and is reading this probably just laughed, because you know that I use the term retarded ALL the time. Last year, on my Myspace, I even had one fact about me written: I use the terms "jerk" and "retard" quite frequently. They are terms of endearment =)
Key to the following debate: Red = My Side Blue = Opposing Side
Here's my response to the original questions:
I use both terms frequently, particularly retarded, and have never met anyone who has been offended (or at least, told me so) by the way I use the words, because its pretty obvious that I do NOT mean them in an offensive way towards a particular group of people.
Just to point out, I have a good friend who's brother is mentally challenged, and two of my co-workers/friends are lesbians, and when I'm around them I do make a conscious effort to not use those words, but when I slip they did not take offense to it, and laugh.
I think this society is way too caught up in political correctness, as I was also saying in the other thread on this topic. My friends and I call each other "Gangsta" sometimes, and "Hobo". Do we mean it in a derogatory way towards those groups? Not at all. Its just the generation of 20-something year-olds and younger that have made this terminology the norm, and I don't have a problem with it when its not blatantly used against a certain group.
Just to point out, I have a good friend who's brother is mentally challenged, and two of my co-workers/friends are lesbians, and when I'm around them I do make a conscious effort to not use those words, but when I slip they did not take offense to it, and laugh.
I think this society is way too caught up in political correctness, as I was also saying in the other thread on this topic. My friends and I call each other "Gangsta" sometimes, and "Hobo". Do we mean it in a derogatory way towards those groups? Not at all. Its just the generation of 20-something year-olds and younger that have made this terminology the norm, and I don't have a problem with it when its not blatantly used against a certain group.
This was the first post in the thread from someone who does not find these terms politically incorrect, so obviously, I got a lot of questions in return. Fortunately, other people on my side started jumping in and holding up my end of the debate.
If you don't think these words are offensive and it's okay to use them, why would you try not to use them in front of those people? Obviously you realize that there might be something wrong in doing that. If you had a child with Down Syndrome would you want others to use the word retarded when making fun of something? This has nothing to do with political correctness, it's plain and simple, it's cruel.
[Following response courtesy of another user]
To me this debate isn't just about the word retarded, or the word gay. It's about language & the bottom line is there will always be a word or phrase that another is going to find offensive. ...
I also disagree with the argument that because someone chooses to not use a word around a certain someone, due to whatever the reason may be that that person would then have to admit that they ARE indeed wrong & that word shouldn't be used. No, it's called being polite & there's nothing wrong with that, but neither does it mean that using that word is wrong. As an example, I have friends who are a certain religion & so there are words I refrain from using around them, it's not because *I* feel the words are wrong I am simply trying to be respectful of them. It's a situation I think we will all find ourselves in & we use our best judement while in them. If this is the example that's going to be used then I'm going to go out on a limb and say were ALL wrong in one way or another, because no doubt every single one of us will at one point in our lives find ourselves in a similar situation, & while in that situation we'll have to decide how best to behave.
I also disagree with the argument that because someone chooses to not use a word around a certain someone, due to whatever the reason may be that that person would then have to admit that they ARE indeed wrong & that word shouldn't be used. No, it's called being polite & there's nothing wrong with that, but neither does it mean that using that word is wrong. As an example, I have friends who are a certain religion & so there are words I refrain from using around them, it's not because *I* feel the words are wrong I am simply trying to be respectful of them. It's a situation I think we will all find ourselves in & we use our best judement while in them. If this is the example that's going to be used then I'm going to go out on a limb and say were ALL wrong in one way or another, because no doubt every single one of us will at one point in our lives find ourselves in a similar situation, & while in that situation we'll have to decide how best to behave.
Words are never just words. They are what we use to communicate, they are all we have. Can you(general you, that uses these words) really find no other way of expressing yourselves other than using gay or retarded? Why would you still want to use them? Since there are so many words, why not pick others that don't insult entire groups of people. I guess I just don't get how anyone can justify using them.
My response:
Anything and everything can be seen as Politically Incorrect. If someone chooses to do so, they can take offense to any chosen word. I wouldn't even put in the effort to come up with a "nicer" word to say, because give it a couple years and it will probably come up in a debate.
I mean, people take offense to the word CHRISTMAS now. How dare we say Merry Christmas, because thats offensive.
Lets see...
Should white be changed to Caucasian?
Black to African American?
Short to vertically challenged?
Old to experienced?
Fat to big boned?
I could go on and on.
I mean, people take offense to the word CHRISTMAS now. How dare we say Merry Christmas, because thats offensive.
Lets see...
Should white be changed to Caucasian?
Black to African American?
Short to vertically challenged?
Old to experienced?
Fat to big boned?
I could go on and on.
I disagree that "anyone can take offense". If you say "that's so gay" and you mean something is stupid or bad or lame, how is that "anyone can take offense"?
Because I believe its a choice to be offended. I mean, obviously some things are so blatantly rude if said directly to someone. But, if its said in a joking manner and not meant towards any specific PERSON, then what is there to be offended at? It wasn't directed at you. And besides, its usually said over a situation or to an object... It doesn't even compare.
[Different User]:
I use the word retarded and gay. I never mean it in an offensive way and would never use the word r.etarded to someone who is mentally challenged. Not because I am ashamed that I use the word, but because I do not mean it in the way of making fun of someone who is mentally slow. If I knew specifically that someone did not like the word or was truly offended by it then yes, I would try to respect that and not use that word.
I try not to be offended by every little thing. I try to remember when I hear people speaking that most of the time people aren't trying to be mean and I feel that without malicious intent then there is nothing to get bent out of shape over.
I try not to be offended by every little thing. I try to remember when I hear people speaking that most of the time people aren't trying to be mean and I feel that without malicious intent then there is nothing to get bent out of shape over.
I would still like to know from those of you who do not think the use of the word retarded is wrong, would you feel different if YOUR child had special needs?
As an adult, we can rationalize the meaning of a word. A child can't. If people walk around thinking it's okay to use such a word and you say it in front of a child that does not give the outward appearance of having a special need, are you seriously okay with having hurt that child/mother's feelings just because YOU think the word is "just a word" and someone like me and my [daughter] just need to get over it?
Politically correct or not, there are just some words or images that are wrong to say or use. I don't need someone to be pc around me and my kid. I need people to be caring and compassionate.
As an adult, we can rationalize the meaning of a word. A child can't. If people walk around thinking it's okay to use such a word and you say it in front of a child that does not give the outward appearance of having a special need, are you seriously okay with having hurt that child/mother's feelings just because YOU think the word is "just a word" and someone like me and my [daughter] just need to get over it?
Politically correct or not, there are just some words or images that are wrong to say or use. I don't need someone to be pc around me and my kid. I need people to be caring and compassionate.
Me:
I can't speak the WHAT IF I had a child with special needs. Yes, perhaps my viewpoint would be altered, but from my current perspective I wouldn't see that happening. I would be concerned for my child's feelings, but even children without special needs get their feelings hurt all the time in school and in the real world, and its up to the parents to be their safe zone and reassuring place. Nobody can shelter their children so much as to not get their feelings hurt. I'm not judging your parenting AT ALL, but thats just my honest opinion. From what I've seen through my high school years (which only ended two years ago), kids are just as mean to kids like them than to those that are different.
What you're not understanding, or choosing not to understand, is that kids with special needs do not JUST have the capacity to get over it just because you want to keep using the word. It's not about me changing my parenting style. My [daughter] has Asperger's and there is a 60% rate of clinical depression amongst kids with Asperger's in their teenage years. MORE THAN HALF. Just because people think that I'm the one who needs to grow a thicker skin? Or that I need to teach my [daughter] that she does? What if she does not have the mental capacity to grasp what YOU want her to? Why can't you just think beyond yourself and what you WANT to say. If it doens't hurt YOUR feelings, but it does hurt someone else's, why can't you see that and choose something esle to say? This word, retarted, is not about being politically correct.
I understand that I'm not in a position to pretend that I know a lot about children with special needs, or have any knowledge about Asperger's, and I find your information interesting. However, I strongly believe that if people who have the same viewpoints as me were associated with your daughter, we would NOT be contributing to the problem. A) Because obviously it shouldn't be said around your daughter, anyone would agree to that and B) I would not use the term around you if I knew you felt so strongly against it.
We DO NOT use the term in a demeaning or malicious way. In fact, the only way that you would ever hear me use it is if you happened to overhear a conversation between my friends and I. I don't go around town purposely calling things or people retarded.
We DO NOT use the term in a demeaning or malicious way. In fact, the only way that you would ever hear me use it is if you happened to overhear a conversation between my friends and I. I don't go around town purposely calling things or people retarded.
The poster goes on to describe the trials she has personally been through with her daughter's feelings being hurt, and her viewpoint as a mother with a special needs child. I don't want to post her personal issues for the sake of her privacy, but the stories are very touching and really made my heart go out to her and her daughter.
My final reply:
I can honestly say that you have opened my eyes to speaking like this in public and to people I don't know well enough. I'm not going to say I will try to stop saying those terms with friends, but I will recall your situation if I accidentally say it in the hearing-span of strangers. I don't have kids yet, but in the future I definitely don't want my children to be the ones that hurt or segregated your daughter. I understand that I will need to make a conscious effort to not say it in front of my children.
I will still debate this topic, but your story did soften me and I think you're doing a great job as an advocate for your viewpoint. Thanks for being willing to share so much of your personal life.
I will still debate this topic, but your story did soften me and I think you're doing a great job as an advocate for your viewpoint. Thanks for being willing to share so much of your personal life.
And her:
OMG. I SWEAR to you that this is the nicest thing ANYONE has EVER said to me. You don't even know me, or my daughter, or what I have gone through here, and yet you were willing to put yourself with me while reading my words. Thank you. Really. Your post just meant so much to me, I'm in tears as I'm typing.
You truly, TRULY "got" what I was trying to say.
Thank you.
You truly, TRULY "got" what I was trying to say.
Thank you.
So I guess, technically, I lost the debate. But it does feel good. Its amazing how just having respect for someone else's opinions and being able to see their point of view can impact so much. Pretty cool.
6 comments:
I avoided that thread...almost makes me wish I had read it. You stayed level-headed and were very kind. It's interesting how people respond in turn.
PS...hope your dog is feeling better!
I work with individuals with developmental disabilities and I believe that
a case can be made for both points of view. I believe that sensitivity and discretion need to be used. I believe that the politically correctness issue does play a part in the reaction of others that are offended by the use of certain words. In my work with with individuals with developmental disabilities, the department of human resources has changed their categorization when referencing this population. When I started working in foster care the word clients was used. Over the last 15 years it has changed from client, to consumers, participants, individuals and various other combinations.
I understand if the word is derogatory that discretion should be used. I do agree that some advocates are overly sensitive to verbiage. ( Often more offended than those with this medical diagnosis) I suggest a better word with the same slang connotation.
I wouldn't faint if you said it amongst friends though.
Well I'm a bit confused with what you guys defined as to be considered "politically Incorect"
You can't say, saying the word "retarted" is politically incorrect. But when you misphrase the word in a senctance.
Like...saying "that movie was retared" is just like saying "that movie was mentaly challanged" See? now that doesn't really sense. Thats what the word means, but now people now use the word as "stupid" or "dumb" and that is not politically correct. But honestly I have no hope for people that willing to "politically correct" themselves.(Including me cuz I use the word just like you do =P) I mean, you might as well redefine the word itself for what it is used for. I read an article how that is how "Websters" does it with their dictionaries.
Yer you guys kinda went off the trial of political correctness, and just talked about how saying retard can offend some people.
You should have just stuck with the words Gay or Queer, as these words are really quite easy to use when debating against political correctness.
For example both these words original meanings have nothing to do with homosexuality, yet over time their meanings have been morphed, they can now mean homosexual.
Now i've heard older people use these words, would you say they are being offensive? these people are using these words with their original meanings intended.
These words have just morphed over time gay went from Bright, high spirited -> Homosexual -> lame, dull boring, stupid.
Another good example is negro, negro is actually Spanish for black so at its basic level negro has no racism intended.
This woman opened her heart to you, tried to show you what life was like caring for a child with a severe intellectual disability, and you are still holding on to your "right" to use whatever word you wish, privileging this above anyone else's experience?
So what if it's just to your friends? The only way to stop people from using the word is to try and stamp out the follow on effect: you use it with them, it becomes habit, they use it with others, society (which is only just beginning to question it's use) sees it as acceptable again, and the whole insidious cycle of marginalisation continues. If 'retard' means 'bad' equivalent, and 'retard' means 'person with developmental disability' then what you are reinforcing is 'person with disability' = 'bad'.
Haha @ your assertion that all kids have name-calling and ridicule to deal with. And that's okay? Yes, I would prefer to eliminate all of that. Do all of these kids have the specific hurdles that children with intellectual disability and their families and carers have to deal with as well, however? Not to the same extent. Never to same extent.
People are asking you not to use that word, because it hurts. It doesn't matter how you mean it. It hurts. It hurts me. It makes me protective like a mother bear, angry like a mother bear, for the sake of my beautiful little sister and the slurs she suffers. It hurts, and I ask you to stop.
But no, you won't promise to try and stop using it with your friends.
When I initially commented I clicked the "Notify me when new comments are added" checkbox and now each time a comment is added I get several e-mails with the same
comment. Is there any way you can remove people from that
service? Bless you!
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